Explosive, magnetic singer Tina Turner dies at 83 (2023)

Hello to all who are still dealing with listeners. Can you make a small bet for me and Wesley? You know the song "Before I Let Go" by Frankie Beverly and Maze?

OK, when did you first hear this? Do you just stop being what you are - when you're in a restaurant, do you put down your tray of food and you just have to go out and dance? What does this song mean to you?

Even if you've never heard of it, we want to know. Please record a short voice memo about your relationship to the song "Before I Let Go" and send it to us. Our email is stillprocessing@nytimes.com.

and follow.

Yes, we will explain later. But now it's acting.

Jenna, it's 1988. We're in Rio with the one and only Tina Turner.

Oh god, I'm so happy already. [laugh]

She rocked the crowd. This concert is a record, isn't it? That's 182,000 people, the most 182,000 people ever paid to see a one-man show together.

Wow.

The trip made 230 appointments in 25 countries.

I can't believe Ms. Tina works so hard.

230 dates!

illusory.

Okay, hair is big, right?

and.

it blows.

Oh yeah.

She has this edge -

Leather tassels, of course.

And of course miniskirts. All I can say is that she is already sweating. The concert is 11 minutes long.

Well, what we also saw was a just-right guy.

She looks as healthy and vibrant as I've ever seen her. How old is she here?

48 years old.

and!

She just kicked the mic. This is the glitch. Still, this is Jenna's favorite part of the song—

Is it a bridge?

This is a glitch. This is a glitch.

Wait, is that a bridge? treasure -

No.

Oh well.

No, this is a glitch.

Alright alright. Tina Turner is someone I regret never met.

Yeah, I mean, just to be one of those people screaming Tina Turner's name?

oh.

However, we have a chance to call her name again. HBO has a documentary about her life called Tina. It's on HBO, HBO Max. It was written by Daniel Lindsay and T.J. Martin. It's basically her life story from childhood to her glorious 80, 81 year old self. Today you and I want to take the opportunity of this documentary to talk about Tina Turner, not just as a story, but as a musician, a performer, and an experience.

I'm Jenna Wortham.

I'm Wesley Morris. We're two culture writers for The New York Times, and we both love Tina Turner.

[laughs] That's still a work in progress.

The kind of person I am, my biggest reference point for Tina Turner, for better or worse, is the 1993 movie What Love Has To Do With It, starring Angela Bassett ".

Of course it's a lot of people.

Of course, "What Love Has To Do With It" is a biopic of Tina Turner's life and her relationship with Ike before embarking on a journey of her own. I mean, that would be great. After watching the documentary, I watched it again. It made me realize that as incredible as that movie was, it wasn't enough for her life story. It was so painful to watch. It doesn't match the extent to which she has shaped and changed music.

Well, anyone who knew Tina Turner through the movie "What's Love Got To Do With It" knows the story of this woman overcoming an abusive marriage with an abusive spouse. But this is not the story of women telling their lives. This is what they hide. Surviving is something they should be ashamed of. But in the culture, there are a lot of stories of domestic violence. Those stories are in the culture. They're the TV movie of the week. But few of these stories are stories of women overcoming abuse.

The documentary is something—it claims, in some ways, to liberate her from that narrative. But for a documentary to do that, it has to put you through all the pain and trauma. I mean, before this HBO Max movie, Tina Turner's big doc was the 1986 book "I, Tina." I mean, I would describe it as basically an oral history of Tina Turner's life interpreted by Kurt Lord, like, Jenna, I know you remember MTV News.

and.

This is the story of how she got rid of Ike. What you take away from the documentary is that she believes that by writing the book, she can end it. I think there's something about this particular relationship and its dynamic that's hard for Tina Turner to get out of it.

I also wonder if the cultural narrative around domestic violence is happy, right? As a very simplified approach. Based on the way the interviewer approached Tina, I'm assuming so. They asked her over and over, like why didn't you leave him?

Yes, that's a great point.

Ike checked the money. He checked her whereabouts. He has surveillance on her. The media is chasing Tina for her, citing "accomplices." One of the weirdest things about this documentary is that it's almost entirely an indictment of the press and a critique of the way people don't let Tina get past Ike.

correct.

It's also really incredible. I thought the comments about how damaging reliving the relationship was to Tina were incredible. But the documentary also lies in the fact that it relives the relationship. He keeps showing up.

He also controlled the music. To be fair, he was the architect of American rock and roll. He's invested heavily in R&B and blues. But when working with Tina, she also had to work that way. What Tina can do as a singer is ultimately limited by what Ike can imagine as a musician about her singing. It's the music he wants to make, not the music she necessarily wants to make.

But you watch old shows like Ike and Tina and you don't even notice him. She is the one who draws you in front of the stage.

I thought about it, representing her scene of liberating the bubble. The only time - Ike won't hit her on stage. He doesn't spend money like that. But you can see that when she's on stage - she's written this. I mean sometimes she comes on stage weak and sick and still bleeding and still has dark circles under her eyes.

She had tuberculosis for eight years!

Talk about someone moving from one field to another, right? Working in the cotton fields and then working in this damn arena, you know.

Yes, Tina is from Nat Bush, Tennessee. Her family more or less dealt with sharecroppers.

But she still had to choose cotton.

Yes, she has chosen cotton many times herself.

But I mean, it's the only time she's free because he can't talk crap. While she was outside, there was nothing he could do. There is a portion of the documentary where she addresses the crowd. she's like—

- It's time for men to stop running. Men will do what they want.

you know what, ladies?

In the background, Ike is just playing, right? He must obey now. He has to keep playing. She can talk as long as she wants. It's a small thing, but somehow it's actually a big thing. you know what I mean? There, she just needs to be free, as free as possible.

Well, you said her talking to the ladies in the audience like that reminds me of this moment from their 1971 live album. They sang "I've Always Loved You" by Otis Redding. In the mist, she starts talking about some other things the ladies need to remember.

oh.

You know, there are some things he might not be able to do, or he needs to do better.

Wow. Mrs. Turner, if you are ugly.

[smile]

Tina!

I love this moment because it's ultimately about her letting herself orgasm. He was playing guitar on the other side of the stage.

correct.

But he is elsewhere. This is her moment. Every time she does this, she gives herself great pleasure.

In her home, this joy was a little foreign to her. As long as she's with Ike, he'll force her to sing his music even if she doesn't like it. And her voice, which is more recognizable than Ike's brand of R&B and blues.

it is true.

But she had these moments of aha, what she could do with her singing. The first happened in 1966, when they struck a deal to sing a song with Phil Spector, who had seen her and Ike perform. He said, I want to make a record with her. He did it. Ike lets her record. But Phil Spector, he's a lunatic who turns out to be a psychopath, and he doesn't want Ike in the studio at all—

oh wow.

- Make this record. That's "River Deep, Mountain High," one of Phil Spector's masterpieces and one of Tina Turner's great singing achievements. In the documentary, she talks about how this was exactly this revelation for her.

Because she just didn't know that she could sing in any other way than scream like Ike wanted her to.

Here, she has a melody. She is very good at it. There is a lot of music in this song. I think there were three guitarists, three drummers and three bassists, and all these string players and all these other singers. She had to climb all the way to the heads of those people—

Wow.

- to be heard. She did it, and she didn't have to scream the whole song to do it. She couldn't believe she had climbed all the way there.

I really like this song. I still feel -

perfect song!

- She sounds like she really believes in what she's singing in a different way. She has something else in that song, I don't know what that is. I don't know what she is thinking. I don't know who she imagines she loves like that doll.

Well, she thought Phil Spector was weird, but she also liked that he believed there was something else she could do as a singer. You can hear it in the song.

The music itself is truly religious. This is very sacred. It's like a different kind of choir. do you understand me? It has this -

It was heavenly.

Yes, this is heaven. This is a very beautiful statement. It was heavenly. It lifts her up, and it feels like this is the moment where she connects with her true talent without him around. Perhaps for the first time in her career.

But by 1964, at a time when the song wasn't doing well in America, Ike basically won. This gave Ike the win. It justified to him his approach to R&B and blues, rather than trying to stick with Phil Spector's voice. She just hated singing that style of R&B, that style of blues. But that's what she continued to do for the next 10 years.

Mmm, wow.

So even though she's writing the song, he's in control of the music. She wrote "Nutbush City Limits," one of my favorite Ike and Tina songs. But she still continued to do things his way.

I mean, talk about the extension of the share system. I mean, I think most of Tina's story is—

Oh good point, yes.

- She grew up in a violent home and witnessed her father abuse her mother. Then her mother left. She grew up with her grandmother. She grew up feeling very unwelcome and unloved. This makes it hard to believe or trust yourself until she does. But most of this story is about that — about these cycles that we inherit and how I think we can get out of the merry-go-round.

It's funny you say that though, because she doesn't show anything - all her inner feelings aren't very apparent in the show. I think the problem is that Ike's style is getting old. Their cover of the Creedence Clearwater Revival song "Proud Mary" was a hit.

With all due respect, John Fogerty who wrote "Proud Mary," their version of that song is basically this. What you hear is her strength as a singer. And the way she sings, huge, feeling, power, that was so important in creating the whole world of how white people sing rock and roll.

Like we're talking about Mick Jagger, Janis Joplin, Rod Stewart, all these guys trying to emulate that power and feel. So on the one hand, she's had an incredible impact on American music, but on a personal level, she's in this little box that this man locked her in. I would say that part of what this relationship with Ike cost her artistically was the freedom to do things. What's she going to do if she misses all the cultural events that are happening, right?

Disco happened late in their collaboration, right? Disco became popular. I'm not saying she wants to dance disco. I can tell you for sure that she wanted to do rock and roll, which was basically American music at the time, more or less. It was the music that spoke to her. That was the music she wanted to make. She really couldn't do it with Ike, who still stuck to this 1950s way of thinking about rock and roll. She left him. Leaving his part, of course, she left the marriage.

She left the family marriage and even what was left at the time. But she also left this creative marriage to go out and find who she wanted to be as an artist, not who this man wanted her to be.

I thought a lot about why rock? I mean, I think about it more philosophically. What does rock represent that what she did before didn't? And I think there must be some fatigue and resistance to this display of intimacy, right? If you think about what R&B is, it's seduction. It was these romantic ballads. These are love songs. Rock songs are also love songs, but they're also about being independent or not independent. I think maybe that's what she's drawn to. Maybe Tina is drawn to this idea, both literally of her musical independence, and this kind of thematic independence. How does it feel to sing these songs now?

She left the marriage. I think, in 1976, it was a very dramatic thing. She came out of the body. Then over the years, she managed to get a divorce. But in the meantime, she was performing in Las Vegas. Bad arrangement. But she'll clip the feathers off her tail, quoting her own song. And the acting works well. People come to see her. But eventually the Australian manager named Roger Davis saw her. He is hooked, just like you. They start cooking. She recorded "Private Dancer". The album "Private Dancer" came out in '84 and was a huge hit.

"What's Love Got To Do With It" was the first official US single, and it was huge. The songs she sang on this album were nothing like the one she sang with Ike, and when she was part of Ike and Tina, she was expected to do a lot of wailing and screaming. And "Private Dancer," the genius of that album, in some ways, is that it's softer, so when she relaxes, it doesn't hit you more than something from the 70s and 60s, but it just Touch you in a different way. The album sold 10 million copies worldwide.

Wow.

This was the beginning of the incredible 1980s for Tina Turner. During this decade, she really picked up that sound and discovered what else it could do. So let's briefly review what she has accomplished during this three to four year period. She won four Grammy Awards in '85.

Technically, one of them was song of the year. She didn't write that song, it was about Tina Turner. It has nothing to do with whoever wrote the song. She played Aunt Entity in "Mad Max, Beyond Thunderdome".

Den har to hits fra det soundtrack, the implied "we don't need another hero".

Astonishing.

She performed at Live Aid in Philadelphia, my city, at the stadium of the late J.F.K. Mick Jagger.

She turned down the role of Siri in The Color Purple.

[panting] What?

Yes, she did. I lived through that story, she said.

Wow.

Every stadium she performed in was sold out.

Astonishing.

Here's my favorite tidbit in this little Tina Turner story. She is in "We Are the World".

God.

So, I mean, just talking a little more about this, it's all happening to this woman in her 40s.

I like it.

But what you said to me earlier struck me. Just the idea that even when she's singing with her power at the top of her voice, there's something -- she's holding something back.

That was my gut feeling when I saw her, and I still sit there to this day because there was some touch on that "River Deep" record that I never felt again. In my opinion, I feel like what we're seeing is a woman who has learned what it means to keep a part of herself to herself. I find a lot of joy in it because it's not mindless restraint, is it? It is well deserved. Tina's personal life just hit the headlines. It seems that with such knowledge, I am giving you all that I have. But I kept the most precious part of Tina for Tina. It's just -- it's so admirable to see.

jenna.

and.

Do you remember "Divas Live"?

A sort of. It has a dark place in my memory, like Oprah's "Legendary Ball." I always knew it was happening, but I found out it was a little late so was cautious.

Well, VH1 used to bring together America's greatest living singers for an evening they called "VH1 Divas Live." And in the second round, the first performer was none other than Tina Turner.

oh so cool.

The opening shot of the night was this limousine pulling up. The first thing you see is Tina Turner's legs. She's just a pair of legs stepping out of a limo and onto a red carpet.

But going the way Tina walked carries a bit of a ghost.

Yes, it's 1999. Tina Turner is probably in her late 60s, or almost 60. Her hair is shorter. It's more blonde.

More bangs, which is great. This is truly iconic Tina. This is one of my favorite hairstyles of hers.

You can hear the engine on her song "The Best". The room went crazy because they knew what was going to happen.

(singing) Wild.

Yes. [laugh]

Oh I love this action! The movement is that she just starts walking across the stage, but every time she puts her foot down she stops, like-

It's a bit of a stretch.

Yes, the kinetic energy she has always had in her dance moves is so unique to her. There was so much energy trying to come out of her.

She always radiates so much energy! She is a tornado! She is a whirlwind of body and voice.

She sang the song and got down on one knee.

Kneeling.

Just bask in admiration.

Because she really appreciates it. She just sucks it in. That's not to say she's full of ego. It's more like self respect and respect for space. It wasn't - she was honored to be there. It's a lesson in being grateful for how rich her life is - I mean, again, it's just a lesson in self-preservation, a lesson in what it means to know your worth.

When she performs, she is happy no matter where she is. That's what I love most about watching Tina Turner. At this point, you and I have been talking about her as a musician, a singer with a voice, and how she got her voice back, right? When she left that marriage, she took it back. But she also had to take back her image — hair and clothes. In moments like "VH1 Divas Live" in 1999, the first thing she recalls is her name. Eck Turner Jean Anna May Brock, Tina Turner. He didn't ask her. He just did it. He imitated her - was it Hina, Queen of the Jungle? He trademarked her name and I didn't even know she knew about it.

Wow.

The biggest scene -- I mean, I don't know. I think most people would say that the limo fight is the best scene in the movie What's Love To Do With It. But I would say the biggest stage for me is the courtroom.

Just give me my name. I mean, it's not just taking her name when you think it's not even her name. do you understand me?

I know.

It's just like -

But she understands the sweat and worldwide recognition of the name. she wants it.

What is she going to do, go to Vegas and be Anna May Brock? No, M.F. don't care about this—

This artist was previously known as -

correct. I mean, whatever value the name has, it's because I give it value. You don't deserve the name. She took back more than just her name. is what she looks like

and.

I think hair and clothes are a big part of how she reinvents herself. And then in 1984, if you first saw Tina Turner in the "What's Love Got To Do With It" video, she had a new hairdo—

oh.

— that hair geyser with fireworks exploding?

and!

It is both a lion's mane and my headgear.

oh.

correct? It feels a lot like a chief's headgear. But she also mentions in "I, Tina" that her long black hair ties her to her Cherokee and Navajo ancestry. The family on her mother's side, they're Native American. And that connection, she could really feel it. She said she felt that way all the time. Hair really matters, you know? It's not ridiculous to be on her because just think of all the Tina Turner Halloween costumes you've seen.

I thought so too, she looks a bit like a caricature. But anyway, it never made fun of her.

Yes, you cannot fill these shoes. People look ridiculous-

it is true.

- as Tina Turner. But you can't fill it up.

Yeah.

The barrier is not only that the wig cannot be tucked in, the denim jacket cannot be tucked in, and the leather miniskirt cannot be tucked in. She exudes an energy in these clothes, in this hair, which has to do with confidence and believing in yourself as a sexy person.

The sexiness of embracing her seems to be part of the sexiness of embracing her, you know? The love inside her grows on its own, and you can feel it more. I think in the excerpt – because you’ve been sending me excerpts from the book “I, Tina” all week, which was the highlight of my week, pure joy – she touched on a little bit. She then also talked about how she used to hate what she saw in the mirror. And she sort of assumes that the lack of love in her relationship with Ike is due to some flaw in her rather than their own illness. Watching her go through this transformation you speak of is truly incredible - watching her embrace what she loves the most, watching her love her legs, her heritage, her hair, her face .and she doesn't have the adornment method to cover her face like Madonna or Cher. Many musicians and celebrities at that level are very fond of their image. And they like to play with different looks and different personalities. That's not Tina - that's not what Tina means. Tina is committed to improving everything there, and I really think it's an act of self-love.

Yes, and confidence, right?

And confidence, yes.

I don't have to be 20 different people. I just need this.

It took me a long time to be myself and I wanted to be myself as best I could. For Tina, the dramatic changes we see in her music—her look, her hair, her personality, her life—actually started within her, in the late 70s At this moment, she encountered Buddhism. And then, of course, in research for the show, I've been reading parts of her book, "Happiness Becomes You," where she talks about how she applies Buddhist principles to her life, which essentially makes her Become a Dharma teacher and impart these principles to modern life to help others reach these principles. So I mean it's pretty amazing to me. But one of the things she writes about in the book is that a sound engineer actually mentioned it to her. You know, Tina, have you ever thought about singing? It was the pinnacle of the abuse, her pinnacle, I guess, the pinnacle of her depression, and she really felt stuck, not sure how to move forward in her life. She was able to regain her mind. Because when you're in an abusive situation, you can't trust yourself.

Yeah, I think I was really hit when she found out about Buddhism. I remember seeing it with a group of presumably non-Buddhist Christians at the Cheltenham Mall in Philadelphia.

It makes sense that she repeats the mantra over and over again. For those familiar with Pentecostalism, it has a tongue-in-cheek quality.

There's a way to her chanting - it empowers her, makes her stronger. For many who saw it, the audience at the time felt strange. But I also think that when it becomes clear what it brings to her and what it allows her to do, it becomes clear we're just talking about God. It was empowering to see her embrace spirituality and get her out of this marriage.

I don't think people know how to deal with spirituality that they don't understand. I really love how Tina talks through various mediums about how she's transformed from the inside out, and how that allows her to start making these bigger changes in her life. Her first level of liberation is to leave Ike. And then the second level of that liberation is that knowing her is enough. I mean, it was a very profound moment, and she was like I was looking in the mirror, actually. Why no one loves me as a woman? It's really emotional.

And I think a lot of women, especially black women, relate to that feeling of growing up in a culture that tells you you're not pretty enough, your natural hair texture isn't enough, your skin tone isn't enough. .Like Beyoncé said I'll never be so perfect that I feel worthless. You know, despite the outward appearance of success, women are still fighting these demons. They are still trying to feel valued and loved. It makes me feel a lot more sane to know I'm not the only one who has these thoughts — these very famous, beautiful, talented women have them too, you know? But for Tina, one of the things is that the song helped her achieve inner peace and openness and love.

Well, it's interesting that you see it as a black woman who is also trying to love herself. Because it’s partially disconnected, I think, in the theater in 1993, you see this church-raised black woman suddenly discover her true strength through some non-Christian beliefs. I think, for me, it also shows Tina Turner's relationship to black culture. Also, when I was a kid, when Tina blew up, when "Private Dancer" came out, it was funny, in Philadelphia, the big black pop station where all the improvisers were, they didn't play " What's love to "have a relationship".

Quite interesting.

You didn't hear "Better Be Good to Me" on WUSO's Power 99. There's always this tension about who we're embracing at this moment. I feel like Black America's embrace of Tina is kind of retroactive for me. But I think something in Buddhism is just - it makes her seem more alien than relevant in some ways.

Yes, there’s this undercurrent of tension about Tina Turner’s relationship to her black identity and whether she’s accepted by black people, whether or not she rejects black culture. I think the judgment and criticism of how black women, especially when they are famous, live their lives and whether they are black enough. You see it -- we're talking about it with Whitney Houston. When you disobey, there's this inherent cruelty, right? Or when you do things, you march to the beat of your own drummer, which is like a very funny fear-based response to criticizing and humiliating yourself isn't enough.

I mean, you've passed this authenticity ring. I also think it's someone who always understands who she is. There’s a passage in “I, Tina” where she talks about going to Europe when “River Deep and Mountain High” was popular there—it’s even more popular there than here. She talks about how good she is in France. She said, don't get me wrong, I'm black. No one has better hair than mine. But I also feel like I've been here, somehow I'm here—maybe it's my mixed race. Maybe it has worked for all white people in Tennessee all these years. Maybe it goes to black churches all the time. But I'm someone who goes beyond black and white in some ways. I am a person who exists as myself. It transcends culture. She literally said, I think I'm universal. I have to say, I think so too. Did you see her in those stadiums, Jenna?

No, she must be at home. And I think we also forget that what we all consider to be the most transformative, inspiring, formative years of your life - your teens, your 20s and 30s - is the workhorse of this kind of abuse bound by a relationship. And then hearing about the freedom and liberation she experienced in her 40s and 50s was incredible.

But there are still mountains. There are merits left to this woman. One of them is being reinducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Boom, boom, boom! Yes it will happen!

of course.

This has to happen. This has to happen this year.

She was with Ike Turner. They were there like Ike and Tina. Now, she's on the inaugural ballot as a solo artist. Let me tell you, the competition is fierce. Like Tina Turner, Jay-Z, Mary J. Blige, Todd Rundgren - Hello Philadelphia - Kate Bush -

Wow.

- One of my heroes. I mean, L.L. Cool J, Chaka Khan, Dionne Warwick.

God.

Jenna, even if she doesn't get it, I'm on the page of fan voting for Rock and Roll Hall of Fame admission. I'm looking at this ranking. And among the five most wanted slots by fans, the fifth place, Foo Fighters. Fourth place, Iron Lady. Third place, The Go-Go's. Second, Fela F-ing Kuti. Fela Cutie!

Wow.

But ranking first, the gap with Fela Kuti is not small——

God!

- The one and only Tina Turner.

oh!

So even if people voting for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame this year don't want Tina Turner inducted --

The people did it!

- People do it. People do it. So Rock Hall voters -

do the right thing.

- You all know what to do. You better be nice to her and be nice to her.

That's our show! Still Processing is produced by Elyssa Dudley and Mahima Chablani at The New York Times.

This week we have an extra special gluten free vegan nut free treat. We've made a playlist of Wesley's favorite Tina Turner songs just for you. It can be found at nytimes.com/stillprocessing. Our editors are Sara Sarasohn and Sasha Weiss.

Marion Lozano mixing performance.

Click download to save Mahima Chablani - Des Ibekwe mp3 youtube com

Special thanks to Lisa Tobin and Wendy Dorr.

Our theme music is Kindness. It is called "World Restart" from the album "Andenhed".

Praying for Ms. Tina to be recognized in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame again.

See you next week.